#12: Shavuot Episode! Torah versus Sin in Second Temple & Talmudic Thought

In this Shavuot “bonus” episode, we will discuss the special status of the Torah for fighting sin, in both Second Temple literature and later Talmudic texts. (Download the source sheet here.)

We will look at:

Dead Sea Scroll prayers that reflect the belief in the metaphysical power of the Torah to fight demonic influence
Wisdom literature (like Ben Sira) that see the law as crucial in fighting the inclination to sin
The hero of 4 Ezra’s problem with the idea that the Torah is enough to combat the evil inclination
Finally, we will look at how these ideas play out in the Talmud.

As always, I look forward to your questions and comments!

Chag Sameach!

14 Responses to "#12: Shavuot Episode! Torah versus Sin in Second Temple & Talmudic Thought"

Alberto Trevino says:

June 12, 2016 at 12:23 am

Hello Dr. Brand

Your research into the subject is most gratefully accepted to it’s ability to open ones eyes & illuminate the triple contrast of the present age, second temple mind set, & first temple foundations. It can work as a antidote to the fog & darkness that sets in when Critical Thinking Skills are applied to the Human Condition.

Reading from the attached source sheet pdf “Torah against Sin” or as I would have Titled & applied the Right, “Torah a Satan to Sin a House versus It’s Own will Fall”

I noted the quot by Baba Bathra 16a “You have created the Garden
of Eden and You have created Gehinnom”

Is this one of the origins of the myth of Heaven & Hell?

What did the original writer hold in his mind in contrast to the Babylonian Talmud writer of “Gehinnom”? is this another example of ideas being adopted by Judeans during our sojourn in the Babylonian & Persian Cultures?

The Most High followed by Abraham, bless & keep you in a State of Wholeness.

Alberto Trevino
1. Miryam Brand says:
  
  July 4, 2016 at 9:46 am
  
  Hi Alberto,
  
  Yes, this is one reflection of the idea of Heaven and Hell. In Judaism (Talmudic and later) Gehinnom is much less defined than the Christian Hell and functions as a purgatory of sorts – you don’t stay there forever, just have your sins “burned off,” as it were. I would say that it developed later than the Jews’ initial contact with Babylonian and Persian culture, since even during the Second Temple period there isn’t much of a belief in a heaven and hell that are relevant to human beings before the apocalypse, although we do see some heaven-like and hell-like options described in Enoch. Maybe I’ll come back to this idea later in the series.
  
  I look forward to your future comments! Please keep them coming.
  1. Erin Hunter says:
    
    September 14, 2016 at 4:05 pm
    
    I would like to learn more on this also.
    
    In Christianity we’ve all been taught so much in the Heaven and Hell concepts.
    
    Since I no longer follow that way of thinking I am eager to hear more from the cultural and historical thoughts!
    
    Shalom and thanks
    1. Miryam Brand says:
      
      October 2, 2016 at 1:07 pm
      
      Yes, there is a LOT to discuss.
Chris says:

June 12, 2016 at 12:41 am

It does not seem to be an unreasonable concept, since the act of pursuing what’s right seems to make it easier to continue to that behavior by way of creating a habit.

Perhaps this idea is the inspiration for the New Testament metaphor where “the word” is a sword?
1. Miryam Brand says:
  
  July 4, 2016 at 4:59 pm
  
  Yes, I think it makes sense as a concept, and if it were just found in wisdom literature I’m not sure how much we’d even notice it as unusual. It’s when it is used almost as metaphysical armor that it stands out. I like your idea that this concept is behind “the word” as a sword! (Admittedly, I’m not enough of an NT scholar to comment much further on it.)
Chris B says:

June 14, 2016 at 12:05 am

Does Paul argue against this idea in Galatians (or his epistles in general)? In other words is it accurate to say that he taught that the Torah was not an antidote to sin?

I’ve listened to all your podcasts and enjoy them very much. I am a convert to Judaism who grew up in a religion that combined aspects of traditional Judaism and Christian beliefs. For me, delving into Intertestamental literature and Second Temple Judaism is like family therapy. Looking forward to more episodes.
1. Miryam Brand says:
  
  July 4, 2016 at 5:18 pm
  
  Hi Chris,
  
  I’m glad you’re enjoying them! I think that Paul argues with this idea specifically in Romans 5 and 7 when he argues that it was actually the giving of the Law that made people sinful. It’s an unusual argument, and I think it is motivated by the desire to “break” the trope of Law/Torah versus sin. Elsewhere (even in Romans 9) he seems to take a more benevolent view of the giving of the Torah, and the Law in general, particularly where Jews are concerned. It is difficult to say what his “real” view was.
  
  Again, I’m glad that you are finding these episodes meaningful. I look forward to your future questions.
Rocky Jackson says:

June 15, 2016 at 5:15 am

Howdy Miryam ok I admit after listening for the third time , It was too late in the evening & I dozed off…twice.

This was amazing……

I like Chris had immediate thoughts of Paul …but I’m fully convinced that he, Paul was well aware of what YHVH spoke to Cain… especially when he speaks about war in his members Romans 7:23.
I know you hold your reservations about the NT…but alas..

Missed you looking forwards to hearing MORE!
1. Miryam Brand says:
  
  July 4, 2016 at 5:19 pm
  
  Thanks for listening, Rocky! Looking forward to more comments from you. 🙂
Joost says:

June 17, 2016 at 11:00 pm

Something entered my mind when reading your source sheet so I`m going to spam your comments a bit. Two things.

1. What about the transfer of “Sin” between people? Answer: TORAH

I actually think the word “Sin” is highly confusing. But that`s a somewhat obvious statement looking at the blog title.

2. “Reality” is able to offer pretty complex variations on the do`s and don`t(s) side. Answer: TORAH

Regards.
1. Miryam Brand says:
  
  July 4, 2016 at 5:20 pm
  
  Wow, that was cryptic. Would you like to expand?
Erin Hunter says:

September 14, 2016 at 4:18 pm

Fo some reason I cannot get my subscription accepted. Anyone know what I can do?

Thanks
1. Miryam Brand says:
  
  October 2, 2016 at 1:05 pm
  
  Hi Erin,
  
  What subscription do you mean? Are you unable to subscribe to the podcast?

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